Back Where They Started
by Gregg LaGambina | 00.00.0000

THERE'S A TENDENCY to say things in one breath. Whenever the notion of the greatest pop bands of the '60s comes up, there's the inhale and then the exhale and then "the Beatles and the Beach Boys" that follows in a gust of hot air. If only a bit more time were taken for the inhale, “the Kinks" would be able to round off the triumvirate in one consolidated heave.

It's probably impossible to overstate the profound endurance of Ray Davies' stories and songs. (Or for Elliott Smith's, for that matter. But we'll get to him.) Hitting their stride (for this writer anyway) around 1966 with the release of Face to Face, the Kinks began rolling out the kind of hazy pop masterpieces that somehow combined the warmth of a pipe organ with a sardonic wink that made you feel both softened with coziness and sharpened with wit. Something was going on and it wasn't quite angry, it wasn't quite elitist and it wasn't perhaps as revolutionary as punk or hip-hop or the Beatles, but it had taken the formula that dripped from the end of the Lennon/McCartney wand and simmered the whole deal in its own kind of cauldron. There is no use claiming to be a pop fan without first draping yourself in the majesty of Face to Face, Something Else by the Kinks,The Village Green Preservation Society and Arthur or the Decline and Fall of the British Empire. (If you ask Elliott, I haven't given nearly enough credence to the band's later work.)

Elliott Smith's connection to Ray Davies goes much deeper than just his penchant for covering "Waterloo Sunset" during countless live performances. They both share the mystique that surrounds the feeling of connecting with a song and its message, even if you're not quite sure what the message was when you heard it. Sometimes melodies and words combine in a sort of nonsensical lullaby that can calm you like the night-light making long shadows on the floor as you drift to sleep in a crib. It's been a bit of a wait since Smith's Figure 8, but the gifts he's given over the course of five solo recordings in the last half of the '90s more than allows him the right to test our patience.

Both Ray Davies and Elliott Smith claim to be close to 95 percent finished with their upcoming solo records. Hopefully this conversation between these two artists will have served to inspire them even a little bit and made it at least one day closer for the rest of us to hear the next sounds they choose to share.

You both agreed to this conversation, so there's an obvious affinity you have for each other's music. Maybe we should start by talking about that.

ELLIOTT SMITH: I've been a fan for a long, long time. What drew me to it initially, was the singing. It's just some really beautiful music and a lot of–-I wouldn't call it comedy, but songs like "Autumn Almanac" I've always really liked. But, it's really your voice, you know? It kind of pulled me in, 'cause I sing and my band is just me. I mean, there's so few people who have shown any interest at all in language, not to make it all serious, but no one shows any interest in lyrics at all. And Ray is one of the main people that do. Nobody was writing lyrics like that.

RAY DAVIES: The first time I saw Elliott's name, was when I went to a bar in Boston called Green Street.

SMITH: Oh yeah, I remember that place.

DAVIES: You had played there the night before and people were saying how great you were and how good your songs were. So, I didn't really see you, but people were talking a lot about you. After that, I took an interest and heard your CD. The one before you signed to the big company [Either/Or on Kill Rock Stars]. And I thought you were a great drummer.

SMITH: Really?

DAVIES: You played all your own instruments, didn't you? You played your own drums.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. I only play the drums when I'm recording, so I don't get much better.

DAVIES: I think with Elliott, it's word of mouth; because the media is too slow to catch on to people with that sort of talent. You know? 'Cause it's not a hyped-up, corporate record and word of mouth is crucial. And playing live.

SMITH: Yeah, that's true.

DAVIES: So that's how I got access to Elliott's music. Then I saw him on the Oscars [performing "Miss Misery" from the Good Will Hunting soundtrack].

SMITH: That was such a weird time.

DAVIES: How was that, playing at the Oscars?

SMITH: Oh...[sighs], that was, oh...

DAVIES: Uncomfortable.

SMITH: Yeah, you know, it was just so surreal that it wasn’t really good or bad. The set-list is only part of one song and you're playing to people who didn’t necessarily come to see you play.

DAVIES: Was that "Miss Misery"?

SMITH: Yeah.

DAVIES: Did you write that before the film people came to you, or did you write it after seeing the film?

SMITH: I was in the middle of making it up. It was pretty close to being done. There was a bit of pressure to not say that at the time. At the time, some things hadn't gotten to me that got to me later. So, I kind of just went along with it. I made no attempt to steer myself this way or that. Then I got lost after that, for a while.

DAVIES: Well, it sounds like you're back now.

SMITH: Well, I like playing music again now. I don't really have much desire to be in the corporate world, or that part of it.

DAVIES: But you're still with DreamWorks, right?

SMITH: Well, nominally. This next record is 99 percent not going to come out on DreamWorks.

DAVIES: Do you find that when you work with those people that everything is more hyped-up, like even in the studio everything seems more hyped-up?

SMITH: Oh yeah. Or, they send someone to "document” your recording and it's just not the same. The record that you must have heard was the one before I signed to the big label.

DAVIES: That's it, yeah.

SMITH: That was the one where I got to record it myself. It was confusing because I recorded too many songs, but it was a better problem than having other people tell you what songs they think should be on it. It was never a situation where they could tell me, "You have to put this song and not that." Didn't you have a lot of pressure from Shel Talmy [producer, known for his early work with the Kinks and the Who during the "British Invasion"] early on?

DAVIES: Yeah, it was a relief when he got abducted by aliens.

SMITH: [Laughs]

DAVIES: Actually, he was one of those producers that just sat there and it looked like he didn't really care much about it. But he did really, he wasn't intrusive, which I think is important, being that we were young and sort of sure of ourselves.

SMITH: Yeah, a lot of stuff came through anyway. Then, when you guys kind of took over the song that you took over on, it's just absolutely gorgeous. It's like, "God, I should be doing that."

DAVIES: Yeah, it's a sense of freedom, being in control of your own art. So, you're going to produce the next record yourself?

SMITH: Yeah.

DAVIES: Good, excellent.

SMITH: I already have stuff done. It's been a lot more fun to record. It's been done in some sort of so-called professional places and some places that are professional enough for me. What sounds good to me is not necessarily what sounds good to KROQ over here [in Los Angeles] or whatever the radio stations are that only play the same 20 songs. And if it's not the type of song that's going to be played on the radio right now, then you're fucked. And I could really give a shit about radio, just 'cause they never play anything that interests me much. Are you rehearsing right now?

DAVIES: I'm recording.

SMITH: Oh, excellent.

DAVIES: I'm listening to tracks and trying to sort out the best drum tracks. It's time consuming. I'm still trying to make it. It's just me. It's like my first studio record with new songs. It's quite daunting because it's like I'm a new artist. You know, starting out.

SMITH: Well, that's great that you feel that way.

DAVIES: I have to, you know, 'cause you're more exposed, I think, as a solo performer then if you are in a band.

SMITH: Oh yeah. If all you can show by singing is that you have no interest in lyrics at all and are singing just so the song won't be an instrumental, that's still exposing something about yourself. So, I don't feel like I'm exposing more about me than they are about them.

DAVIES: Are you going to tour again with this record?

SMITH: Yeah. This one I'm actually going to try to sell. What about "Come Dancing"? That was a pretty big record for you…

DAVIES: I still prefer the demo. You know, I wrote that song more for me and if I was a solo performer that would be a song that I'd write for me.

SMITH: I've always liked that song.

DAVIES: It took a while to get the band to actually agree to record it, because it wasn't like a rock song.

SMITH: I used to have that same situation when I was in a band [Heatmiser].

DAVIES: It's a terrible thing. Musicians are so destructive sometimes [laughs]. I think with the Kinks--when we had Mick Avory playing drums, our original drummer--he was quite sensitive to the songs that I liked. It's important that a drummer doesn't have to be sort of a big powerhouse. That's why your drumming is good, when you play on your records. Because you know the song and to have drummers who like the song is very important, rather than just sound great. Are you still doing those nice double-tracking vocals?

SMITH: Yeah, well I like it so much more than delay. I think it sounds a lot more organic.

DAVIES: Did you ever see John Martyn perform? The English, blues, jazz, folk...

SMITH: Some people have brought him up. He's one of those people that I haven't checked into.

DAVIES: I saw him on a rerun of an old show he did, in the '70s, I think it was. And he was using delay a lot on the guitar and playing on top of the delay. He was a solo performer then, I think he still is. And I thought that would be useful for you to try. For Elliott to try—using delay creatively on stage. You should put layers of sound on.

SMITH: I usually play just totally straight, if I'm playing by myself. When I play with a band, they're usually friends of mine who play music in other bands. Sometimes, if I'm lucky, someone will play music just with me. There's this band Quasi that played with me for a while

DAVIES: Where are you from? Are you from Portland?

SMITH: I grew up in Texas, but I went to most of high school in Portland.

DAVIES: I think Portland's a good music town. When I was there last, I went to this like vegetarian coffee shop. I forget where it is.

SMITH: Oh, that would be all over the place [laughs].

DAVIES: [Laughs] There's lots of good music and there's a few nice little stores-new music stores. I played a gig there, I don't remember what it was called. It was a theater...

SMITH: Yeah, my ex-girlfriend went to it. Boy, it's strange to be talking to you, because I've learned so much from you.

DAVIES: Ah, well that's good [laughs]. So when do you think your record will come out?


SMITH: Well, I have to finish it first. I've been about 95 percent done for a long time. I got too depressed to work on it. There was too much bullshit going on as far as the business side of things, which is not any side of things when it comes to music.

DAVIES: It will be ready when it's ready. That's the thing to think about. You know what I'm saying?

SMITH: I'm ready to tour, though.

DAVIES: Don't force it out.

SMITH: No, I won't, but I feel like doing it now. Having this conversation makes me want to get working on it right away. I think it'll probably be done sometime in the next couple of months.

DAVIES: I remember when we did our second album, after the first one went to number one, in England anyway. We came back off a world tour and they said, "Your new album is coming out in six weeks." I said, "Well, we haven't even recorded it or written it yet."

SMITH: [Laughs] Right.

DAVIES: So I had to write a lot of it in the studio. You don't need those kinds of pressures. Nobody does.

SMITH: Yeah, but I don't know. To me, those days reading about those days, since I wasn't old enough, or didn't exist yet...

DAVIES: But don't think I did, as a matter of interest... [laughs]

SMITH: I mean, you know so much more about this than I do.

DAVIES: Yeah, well when I started on this record, I felt like I didn't know anything. I don't think anybody knows everything and I certainly don't know everything. I think that's the wonderful thing about doing songs and doing this record—discovering what I am as a singer and writer. I don't know anything at all.

SMITH: That's my favorite part about playing music: making up songs and accidentally surprising myself. You know, like when your hands just kind of do it. Your eyes are watching television or something and something pops into your head and before you know it, you've got a song on your hands.

DAVIES: They come at the most unexpected times.

SMITH: They kind of happen behind your own back.

DAVIES: Those are the best ones.

SMITH: It's your imagination, but it's like you're being stared at, you know? None of your songs sound forced to me.

DAVIES: I think there have been a few, but I don't talk about them [laughs].

SMITH: They don't sound like it.

DAVIES: I try to keep 'em sounding natural. That's really important.

SMITH: That was something I always really liked about the Kinks.

DAVIES: Yeah, it was a good thing and a bad thing. Commercially it wasn't good for us, but on the other hand, some of those albums that we put out in the late '60s/early '70s, like the Village Green [Preservation Society] album, they sounded like demos. You'd never get airplay with it, but it's the way they sound and you can't change it.

SMITH: Some people try to mimic that sound. I mean, I wouldn't ever say they sound like demos.

DAVIES: It's sort of lower-achiever—not trying too hard. I think that's the secret of it.

SMITH: [Laughs] I pictured you being an overachiever.

DAVIES: The times I have, they've been totally embarrassing. It's an embarrassment to be like that.

SMITH: There's no way to do this without times of embarrassment.

DAVIES: Do you like writing comedy, or like little bits of humor in songs?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. I do. My problem is, things were very different by the time I started playing music. There were just so many more records coming out a year that unless you played one of the three kinds of songs that were on the radio, then it was not going to be played. But I get perceived as being very serious or rather somber.

DAVIES: You know the sort of thing I don't like, is fake humor, the cheap kind.

SMITH: I don't like that either. I think there's ways in which, even in pretty desperate situations, there's little micro victories inside them. And if you can highlight those... Sometimes there's humor in just how opposed some people are to some idea or other.

DAVIES: Humor is a tough thing to put in songs. It's just a fine edge of what's over the top and what is generally funny. But it's nice to put something in the song for the listener. They sit down and they think, "Oh, I connect with that. That's quite funny." But without making you fall over laughing, without being slapstick.

SMITH: You can make the serious parts of songs or the kind of hard-hitting parts of songs—you can make them hit even harder if you can have some [pauses]... I don't know if levity is the right word.

DAVIES: Sometimes I've thought that I've written a really funny line and I'm playing it in the studio and nobody laughs. It's off-putting.

SMITH: It's off-putting, but maybe they don't laugh because they're kind of intimidated by you because you're Ray Davies.

DAVIES: Maybe they're thinking about the sound and they're not concentrating on the lyrics.

SMITH: Or they might think it puts you off...

DAVIES: Maybe that's it.

SMITH: Maybe they feel they got too close to what you were doing.

DAVIES: That's a good point. They're trying to be professional about it.

SMITH: They're trying to make sure they don't offend you.

DAVIES: I must remember that next time.

SMITH: I've recorded with people who are like that even with me, so I'm sure they're like that with you. But usually, if you can record with them for more than a day, then they start to crack-up about this and that. F

[This interview was conducted on March 26, 2003. The story appeared in Issue 5.]